C64 Reloaded

Disk drives, Monitors, SuperCPU etc.
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eslapion
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Re: C64 Reloaded

Post by eslapion »

dudz wrote:a) it takes much longer to install and remove the chips from regular sockets, especially if you are planning not to destroy the chips nor leave visible marks on the sockets
b) those clone zif sockets are really really REALLY cheap, especially when you buy them in bulk directly in asia :)
What I see on Individual Computers official photos contradicts what you say.

1. Both CIAs on the C64r are on "standard" sockets (no way to tell if they are junk single leaf sockets or good quality double leafs or purely good looking machined sockets)
2. The shown ZIFs are genuine TEXTOOLs - Schönfeld claims that's because the laws in Germany make the seller responsible if buyers mess up

Schönfeld made the C64r the way it is because he totally lacks true engineering knowledge, not because he wants to provide quality at the lowest possible price.

He didn't put HC chips on that board because he got a good deal, it's because he doesn't know you should use HCT chips with TTL-LS signals and probably didn't even know they existed when he ordered his components.


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Re: C64 Reloaded

Post by dudz »

2. The shown ZIFs are genuine TEXTOOLs
nope, these are clones, and really cheap ones too :) (about twice the cost of regular precision sockets iirc)
He didn't put HC chips on that board because he got a good deal, it's because he doesn't know you should use HCT chips with TTL-LS signals and probably didn't even know they existed when he ordered his components.
oh i'm pretty sure he knows exactly what he is doing there - even i know that shit, and i didnt do any electronics crap since i finished my apprenticeship 20 years ago.
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Re: C64 Reloaded

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dudz wrote: (about twice the cost of regular precision sockets iirc)
"precision sockets" is technobabble.

In the industry, you have single leaf, double leaf or machined pins DIP sockets.
oh i'm pretty sure he knows exactly what he is doing there - even i know that shit, and i didnt do any electronics crap since i finished my apprenticeship 20 years ago.
So what you're saying is he intentionally did something you should never do... says a lot!

What are you man, a worshiper of that guy?

All too often you strictly defend the most ill-advised thing to do.
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Re: C64 Reloaded

Post by dudz »

ah so we are back to that crap again? ok. i'm out then :)
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Re: C64 Reloaded

Post by eslapion »

Search for "precision sockets" on Digikey's web site:
http://www.digikey.ca/product-search/en ... %20sockets

Good luck with the results...
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Re: C64 Reloaded

Post by ckoba »

I've given this some thought, and I really can't see who the target audience of the C64R is supposed to be.

Per the wiki, it's basically a 250466 board with a couple of voltage regulators (for stepdown from +12VDC to +5 and either +9 or +12 for SID) and an inverter (to generate +9VAC for the user port). The value-add of this board appears to be the ability to run from a +12VDC wall wart, a VDP DMA fix, and an 8701 replacement that switches from PAL to NTSC. I can't tell from the pictures if there is ESD protection between the joystick ports and the CIAs, but I assume there isn't.

All of the Commodore chips, except the CIAs, need to come from a donor board. The thing is, it's those chips that usually (but not always) are the reason the donor board doesn't work. You'd have to source working chips to have a working C64R, and if you do that you might as well put them into what would have been the donor board ... you'd be guaranteed 100% compatibility with all hardware/software.

Running off of +12VDC is a good thing, if the user isn't capable of building a power supply him/herself. A good switching supply is trivial to build out of a +5VDC switching board (not wall wart) and a +9VAC transformer (also not wall wart), though, and it's much cheaper than the 160 euros he wants for the C64R. S-Video is likewise trivial to add via a 75 ohm resistor, and if the VIC artifacting bothers you there's a board by e5frog (I think) that addresses most of that.

I spent a lot of time in China, at various factories, watching various devices go from boards and components into finished product. I have a fair idea of how much it would cost to assemble the C64R in China, and the labor cost isn't that much. If the board is made in Europe and hand-soldered by Schönfeld himself, then it of course would be a different story.

I see much more value in the Chameleon than I do in the C64R. With the Chameleon, at least, the user doesn't have to source working NOS chips. With this ... well, the only use case I can see for it is one where the user cannot or will not invest in a better power supply for an existing board.

(and as a side note, when I saw all of the ZIF sockets on the board, the first thought that came to mind was "this board kills chips often". I hope that's not the case, but I can't see another scenario where a user would regularly be swapping chips in and out of the board)
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Re: C64 Reloaded

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@ckoba
On boards 326298, 250407 and 250425 when DRAM chips fail, they are a bitch to fix so there you have donor boards. They are usually destroyed by faulty PSUs.

ALso, the 64r introduces a fix for a slight amount of video noise since all genuine Commodore board have the luma and chroma signal go through the modulator board. The 64r has slightly better quality video.

That, of course is on top of having it's own internal switcher which pretty much eliminates the possibility of power supplies damaging chips.

As for wallwarts, I have been arguing for years there are different levels of quality in wallwarts. Some are even medical grade. Unfortunately most people buy the 2$ kind you get on eBay and then whine wallwarts are bad...
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Re: C64 Reloaded

Post by dudz »

What are you man, a worshiper of that guy?
All too often you strictly defend the most ill-advised thing to do.
it might help if you didnt jump to wild conclusions all the time. when i say something like "michael jackson was a great song writer and entertainer", that doesnt mean that i like his music, worship thriller, or defend sex with minors.
Search for "precision sockets" on Digikey's web site
why the hell would i do that? believe it or not - i do actually know the difference between common speech and tech terms.
I really can't see who the target audience of the C64R is supposed to be
i got it mostly for the 12V - although i am very well capable of building a psu myself :) i'm just lazy like that, and a industry made wallwart is also smaller and probably more durable for transportation. besides that, its also a nice board to have when you repair other C64s - i wish the CIAs also had ZIF sockets for that matter.
that said, i think the main target audience are those collectorpeoples who also buy SCPUs and CMD drives to put them into a cabinet in their livingroom - at least thats what the respective threads on forum64 suggest :)
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Re: C64 Reloaded

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dudz wrote:it might help if you didnt jump to wild conclusions all the time.
I don't think I "jump to conclusions". I read what you post, not what you think...
when i say something like "michael jackson was a great song writer and entertainer", that doesnt mean that i like his music, worship thriller, or defend sex with minors.
That's an interesting view of Michael Jackson. I have to admit I like his early 80s music but not the rest and I do share your point of view on the rest of the character.

I don't like at all what he did anymore than the bit of flesh that used to dangle from the tip of his nose - a consequence of his abuse of cosmetic surgery.
... besides that, its also a nice board to have when you repair other C64s - i wish the CIAs also had ZIF sockets for that matter.
Good point. I do feel its somewhat expensive for a "testbed 64"
that said, i think the main target audience are those collectorpeoples who also buy SCPUs and CMD drives to put them into a cabinet in their livingroom - at least thats what the respective threads on forum64 suggest :)
That, on the other hand is precisely the kind of people you do NOT want to have in the Commodore community. People who contribute nothing other than pushing upwards the price tag of everything related to Commodore computers.
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Re: C64 Reloaded

Post by Zippy Zapp »

I hesitate to post in this thread because of the bias and bad blood that exists between you guys, apparently. But although I have a C64R and an accelerator from iComp I wouldn't call myself a fan I am simply a customer that saw a product that I could use and bought it. I didn't know who Jens was nor did I care if he was a vegetarian or owns any pets. My point is I am saying something about the product not the person.

The C64R that I have has all NOS chips. My understanding is that the initial batch did not need scavenged chips from other C64s. He had a supply of NOS chips. In fact mine came with new CIAs, PAL VIC II and 8580 SID and a alternative 8701 timing replacement. I provided a true 8701 and a NOS PLA that I have had sealed in a package for years. I also have a PLAnkton to use with it (Thank you, great product) and NTSC VICII. So my C64R is basically all new with no stealing from other C64s as my parts were NOS parts spares. I think this was the case for the first 100 or so boards. The later non-zif versions didn't come with chips.

Why would you want one?
I can think of a few reasons:
1. NEW replacement board with ZIFs for easy changing.
2. Direct S-Video out with very clean video
3. Easily configured from PAL to NTSC and back, from 6581 to 8580 SID and back, same with the VICII.
4. Headers for expansion of internal IEC etc.
5. EPROM based ROMS that make it very easy to install alternative kernals, etc.
6. Built in Reset button
7. 3.5 audio jack that can be wired to dual SIDs via a pad for the left channel

We all want our C64s to last as long as possible and I absolutely wanted one for not only longevity but for easy upgrades and switching between not only chips but Video/Audio standards, etc.

If the HC chips are bad for my setup I haven't noticed it and hopefully wont. Of course I primarily use a C64C that I originally got in 1987 or 1988 and a 1983 model C64 that sat in a closet since the 1980s because the CPU died and I didn't know until 20+ years later when I got into repairing them. But it is nice to have a modern replacement just in case.

I still don't get all the hoopla you guys make over Jim Drew's products either and to say that CBMSTUFF products or Jim Drew are not wanted or are bad for the Commodore Community is kind of funny. You are absolutely in the minority here. His products work and have worked for what 30 years? Do the detractors have a history of successful Commodore products for the past 30 years? Again, I don't know Jim Drew personally only his products that I have been using since the 80's. In fact I didn't know who designed them when I bought them years ago, they were just products to me. Detractors and people calling him out for old stupid stuff are way in the minority.
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