A different C-64 video tweak

[motrucker]

Ran across this recently - an interesting idea, to say the least..........

https://github.com/c0pperdragon/C64-Video-Enhancement

[Gyro Gearloose]

Seems like an overly complex solution to a simple non-problem.
"It is then basically impossible to truly convert it back to any form of RGB"

Converting NTSC's "strange" color encoding to RGB is not that hard, they make chips just for that, or at least they used to, and in the 1960s they were able to decode the "strange" signals into RGB with a handful of vacuum tubes. Every color TV or monitor ever made is able to convert it to RGB to send it to the picture tube.

What I'm getting at is that once you're replacing all the 64 parts with modern electronics ... what's the point? Just get a PC.

IMO there's no point anymore in this hobby if all the chips in your 64 now run 128 bit Linux on 18 core FPGAs.

[eslapion]

The biggest problem here is the fact, that the VIC-II video chip directly creates a chrominance signal in the weird and strange way that is necessary for use with analog television systems. It is then basically impossible to truly convert it back to any form of RGB or other component signal (and I tried really, really hard).

... I know a few Chinese folks who invested less time and effort and came up with a 25$ box!

Somebody here thinks too much in digital and not enough in analog! Is this where the millenials are going ? Not good!!

Reminiscent of an old Star Trek episode...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11001001

By the way, that's 201... whatever it means.

[Gyro Gearloose]

Analog, eh?

[motrucker]

What I'm getting at is that once you're replacing all the 64 parts with modern electronics ... what's the point? Just get a PC.
IMO there's no point anymore in this hobby if all the chips in your 64 now run 128 bit Linux on 18 core FPGAs.

Working on one circuit is hardly "replacing all the 64 parts with modern electronics". If you like the jail bar effect, and want a pure 1982 experience, that's fine. I've met people who will not use a fast load cartridge because it isn't original.
Personally I thought this project was as interesting as the Lumafix project in some respects, not that I am building either project.
I depend on an external scaler, because my eye sight is finally going. I like to keep up with what's going on concerning the C-64 and C-128 however, good bad or in between.

[roasbaum]

Hi Motrucker,

I think the project is fantastic! I have boards and parts ready to assemble once I can carve out the time. One thing to note, the original Y/C signals are routed to to the DIN port as usual (sans RF interference) so you can continue to use them if required.

(Regarding the latter bit, if the only requirement is Y/C, the original RF adapter can be somewhat easily modified for better picture quality, that is, if you have no need for RF.)

I have a few Sony PVM monitors here, and prefer CRT displays with old computers, so the idea of wanting to achieve the very best possible picture quality with them is of course understandable. (I have a similar RGB device in an Atari 1200XL, made by a very talented hardware guy from Poland. The results on a PVM are absolutely STUNNING compared to svideo on the same monitor.) Additionally, once RGsB is implemented, you could conceivably use a plethora of quality 31kHz+ CRT monitors using the board's line-doubling feature (think 17" VGA Trinitron, for example).

I can understand the "purist" approach of only wanting to utilize the original signals, so no problem there. However, claiming that Chinese adapters offer the same features and quality (or that the monitor already converts to RGB internally, therefore no need) are statements which appear to intentionally miss the point. Although, I would be surprised if that wasn't equally obvious to anyone else who happened to read them.

[Gyro Gearloose]

I understand that capturing the video chip registers in real time and feeding the values to an emulated VIC-II will let you create a HDMI signal directly.
Then of course you can tweak the palette for over-saturating the colors for the "stunning" results.
At that point, why not just run an emulator? You're no longer running anything close to original hardware. So what's the point?

You're putting one of these



on one of these



And then telling everyone how fast you can fly. But I like flying a Sopwith Camel with all the smells, noises, and bumps.

The cheap Chinese scalers (CCS) let anyone connect a 64 to a modern TV with minimal cash outlay and zero electronics work required.

Buy, connect, turn on.

Is it perfect? Nope. I've played with several scalers on several LCD monitors and nothing is (yet) as good as a 1080 monitor.

But for about 10$ and no risk? It's a very good value proposition.

We're not even talking about the same things here anymore, we're comparing apples and cinderblocks.

[roasbaum]

We're not even talking about the same things here anymore, we're comparing apples and cinderblocks.

Yes, that seems to be the case. The referenced project outputs an analog (component) signal, certainly no HDMI (or LCDs) here if I can avoid it. (Too much lag in my experience, along with poor LCD pixel response and scaling all results in artifacts which dull the experience somewhat.) The palette can be modified if desired, for results which are more (or less) authentic. The stunning results I mentioned with the similar 8-bit Atari project are due to the vastly superior signal quality of analog RGB (or YPbPr), vs the notoriously poor quality of the Atari Y/C. (On the same monitor, which accepts both inputs, there is no contest, and it has nothing to do with color saturation.) The C64 is already better in this regard, especially with the RF portion of the modulator disabled, though improvements are welcome with a few Sony PVM around here that can make good use of the enhanced analog signal source.

I agree with you that needs will differ subjectively. It makes perfect sense that someone might try to play with the original signals in the pursuit of creating a superior analog experience, which would be more "authentic" in exchange for quality degradation as opposed to the "starting over" approach. I like the "real" experience too, warts and all, which is why I still have a bunch of CRTs and 1541s around... but I also like to tinker in my free time, as I imagine you do, too. If this particular C64 was in good condition I'd leave it original--typically I'd recommend an Ultimate 64 (or similar) for experimentation sans floppies or for use with modern displays.

[motrucker]

I was a bit surprised at the response to this project. Most of those cheap Chinese scalers do not give a good display (if they work at all). I guess this is all a bit subjective, but why not use the best display you can?
Personally I like using CRTs with the C-64 too. If I want to use HDMI I'll use my C-64Mini for an occasional game.