PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Disk drives, Monitors, SuperCPU etc.
rmzalbar
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by rmzalbar »

Tested with C64 death brick power supply. No difference.



banman
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by banman »

rmzalbar wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:50 am
I will try out my original kamikaze brick to see if it makes any difference.
LOL.. I don't think I've ever heard that before..... I love it! :lol:

If you have the breadbin C64 rmzalbar variety you may be able to squeeze it in.. I have had some fairly tall setups inside a breadbin.

In my ...407 setup I'm using a 5v VIC II chip from a C64C. These are later style chips. The video output is way better than earlier VIC II 12V/5V style. That's in a cradle not much taller than eslapion's LumaTOLB board. If you look at my pictures in the earlier posts I don't think the chip on it's own comes above the RF side shield.

I too am using a switching supply for 5v and a wall wart for 9v ac.. .
I am thinking rmzalbar I have virtually the same board as you (I think I have the hipric version).

What if I probe around my PAL board and post pictures of the readings and then you can compare them with what you have on your board?

Maybe eslapion and yourself can advise me where to take some readings? I am very much a newbie to all this stuff. I do find it fascinating though..

Just a thought....

rmzalbar
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by rmzalbar »

banman wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:00 am
In my ...407 setup I'm using a 5v VIC II chip from a C64C. These are later style chips. The video output is way better than earlier VIC II 12V/5V style. That's in a cradle not much taller than eslapion's LumaTOLB board. If you look at my pictures in the earlier posts I don't think the chip on it's own comes above the RF side shield.
As it is, I had to file down the heatsinks and route the keyboard wires away. Another socket sandwich under there simply would not fit. There's room for one socket sandwich.. but not two.
What if I probe around my PAL board and post pictures of the readings and then you can compare them with what you have on your board?
I thank you for the offer, but my oscilloscope doesn't have a true frequency counter in it, so there's a problem comparing our numbers. USPS reports my C64G has cleared customs and is on its way across the continent, and they are fast running out of chances to elbow-drop it into smithereens. So I may actually end up getting to run them side-by-side this week.

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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by banman »

No worries....

I would like to hear how you get on with it all....

Good luck..😁

rmzalbar
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by rmzalbar »

Well, the mail system did their very best to destroy my C64G: The box was completely crushed, ripped open, and destroyed. It resembles a grocery bag more than a box; a pulped, destroyed bag kept in one piece only by a generous bandaging of neon-orange tape, bearing the words "Vorsicht Glas! NICHT WERFEN - NICHT FALLEN LASSEN"

However, the computer within survived without damage. Case and keys could use a little retrobriting, but not too bad. Red LED instead of green, for some reason. Missing a few screws. No broken tabs or major blemishes on the case. Keyboard is PETSCII-on-top style. All good per the test harness.

It's a 250469 with the separate 2114 color RAM, exactly what I was hoping for. The picture is very bright and sharp compared to my NTSC breadbins. Probing VIC-II 21 of course gives me 17.73MHz, but so does the other one. I need more precision. Of course, there are no vertical color stripes.. and the visible hanover bar error is much less, so the timing must be better.

Next up, testing my color-bar-afflicted machine with a TOLB.

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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by banman »

Hi rmzalbar,

Your heart must have sunk on receiving the delivery.

It is a good thing they packed it well. Australia Post can do some diabolical things to parcels as well... :evil:


The C64G, is that the breadbin style one sold by ALDI supermarkets in Germany at one time?


Is your board green or yellow?

The VIC II chip in my 250407 board came out from 250469 (not too sure on the revision number). They have great picture quality..

Thinking back on the earlier discussion regarding the several monitors you used. Do any show no signs of banding? Can you rule out the displays you use, so you think the issue is pointing more towards the 250407 C64?

There is a mod you can do to get the 5v VIC II chips to run in a 12v/5v socket. Are you planning on testing the C64G VIC II chip in the VIC II2 board?

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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by eslapion »

rmzalbar wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:46 am
... The picture is very bright and sharp compared to my NTSC breadbins.
...
Possibly just a matter of adjusting the Luma amplitude with a pot on the modulator.
Wealth, like happiness, is never attained directly. It comes as a by-product of providing a useful service. -Harland D. Sanders

rmzalbar
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by rmzalbar »

banman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:44 am
The C64G, is that the breadbin style one sold by ALDI supermarkets in Germany at one time?
Not exactly. The C64-G is a C64-C mainboard in a white breadbin case, with a white C64C keyboard and a green LED. The label is vinyl and has a light gray theme. I like these as I prefer the breadbin case, and this way I can get a C64C, with its 8580 sound and such, in its original breadbin case with a pretty neat white color theme. The C64G matches my 1541C disk drive in styling and color, whereas the C64C case is more akin to the 1541-II / 1571 in styling.

The ALDI version seems to come in a brown bin with a white keyboard. The LED was red, and the label was the original brown theme.
Is your board green or yellow?
Green. 250469 Rev 4.
Thinking back on the earlier discussion regarding the several monitors you used. Do any show no signs of banding? Can you rule out the displays you use, so you think the issue is pointing more towards the 250407 C64?
I've definitely ruled out the displays (I have at least 8 different models to test on, CRT and LCD.) I think the issue is related to clock timing or modulator circuitry. I'll be exploring these in the near future (eslapion's TOLB for timing, modulator removal if that doesn't do it.)
There is a mod you can do to get the 5v VIC II chips to run in a 12v/5v socket. Are you planning on testing the C64G VIC II chip in the VIC II2 board?
I'm happy leaving the VIC-II chips in the boards they are in. Once I replace the clock and modulator, there won't be anything left that could be board-specific.

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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by banman »

rmzalbar wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:48 pm
Not exactly. The C64-G is a C64-C mainboard in a white breadbin case, with a white C64C keyboard and a green LED. The label is vinyl and has a light gray theme. I like these as I prefer the breadbin case, and this way I can get a C64C, with its 8580 sound and such, in its original breadbin case with a pretty neat white color theme. The C64G matches my 1541C disk drive in styling and color, whereas the C64C case is more akin to the 1541-II / 1571 in styling.

The ALDI version seems to come in a brown bin with a white keyboard. The LED was red, and the label was the original brown theme
Yes, I think so as well.....

Sounds like you have got a nice looking machine....

I think someone on eBay at this moment is selling just the case. I can see the label you are referring to. It's quite a bit different from what I normally see.


https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 4152552613


Got any photos of the new machine?

rmzalbar wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:48 pm
I'm happy leaving the VIC-II chips in the boards they are in. Once I replace the clock and modulator, there won't be anything left that could be board-specific
I agree with you there... You have been very thorough in working thru all the possible causes....


I have the C64C. The mainboards are very reliable. Commodore must have worked out many of the earlier boards weaknesses...

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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by rmzalbar »

Yep, that's the same case. I wanted to clean it up before putting up any pictures.. this weekend

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