PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Disk drives, Monitors, SuperCPU etc.
banman
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by banman »

Hi rmzalbar,


Have you had any more luck with working out what's going wrong with the cartridge crashing?

I know I could be going right off track here. It's maybe not the C64C's short board super PLA going bad?

I realise that these chips are super reliable. When I was fooling around with substitute PLA chips (long board C64 types very unreliable) the dodgy ones would crash and lock the system just if you hit the run stop key. Not to mention strange behaviour when running basic garden variety C64 cartridges.

I'm not sure how to check the status of the !RomH and !RomL with an oscilloscope on the super PLA C64 short board versions.
It might be similar to the way the C64 long boards are tested (that's an easy test, you've got all the equipment there), eslapion is the best source of information on this. Maybe he can elaborate on this.......


Just a thought..



Regarding the the grey dot bug I saw this...

https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=11&topic ... irstpost=2

I am not really smart so much of it is still beyond my grasp. I am picking up things very slowly...


I like what you did with the ESD protection.

I had to do a little bit of digging to understand the importance of having ESD protection.

I found this blog on the internet.

http://pasilassila.blogspot.com/2014/06 ... t.html?m=1

https://www.nexperia.com/products/esd-p ... 5Z6.0.html

Have a look at the data sheet to see some installed instances..


Looks like an easy mod for little dollars. The CIA's are hard to get nowadays.


rmzalbar
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by rmzalbar »

Well so far, it doesn't seem to be a problem with carts, just with some disk turbo methods. I have now found at least two software-based disk turbos that fail on this machine. Other cart functions all work fine, and even cart-based ROM replacement all works fine so I think it's restricted just to serial communication.

I guess I could try replacing U22, and then desolder and swap the CIA if not that, followed by the PLA. I have gathered spares for most of the C64G chips, it's just too bad that I'll have to desolder them first. I have to wait a long time for the fine-pitch PLA socket to arrive so I won't be going crazy with anything right away.

I used one of Eslapion's TOLB to convert to NTSC and discovered that both the grey dot bug and the VSP bug are absent with the 8562 I have, which is interesting, but didn't fix the disk turbo problems.

I'll try again with the ESD protectors once I get another batch of them. 5 out of the 6 port protectors I installed were fine, but I expected possible problems due to overcooking the ESD parts and indeed I happened to have one.

That page you pointed to is the same person who is selling these little boards. The boards are definitely the better way to go - installing individual SMD TVS diodes like that is very fiddly and in fact it's really only possible to do it that way on the 64C board. The longboards don't have the ground fill around the port.
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banman
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by banman »

Hi rmzalbar,


It is a good thing your Vic II chips don't show the the grey dot bug. I have one of the 5v short board Vic II versions running in a modified cradle on a long board C64 breadbin.
I think it doesn't show the grey dot bug which is lucky for me.

It is a tricky thing to desolder those bigger chips. Good luck with it. Do you have a good technique for safely pulling those big chips from the PCB?

I like to hear of the different mods people have done to their setups.
I am a bit tame when it comes to big mods. I am comfortable with standard original looking setups.

I am interested in building for myself the Easy Cart II. I know there is a 3 version. It looks a bit out of my league to construct. Do you have a favourite game cartridge?

The bottom line is whether you are happy with what you have done.
If so , then you have 'arrived' !

Stay there as long as you can before the tweaking itch gets you going again . The catch to doing all this is to arrive at some configuration that you are 'happy' with. ,😁
rmzalbar
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by rmzalbar »

The machine with the VIC-II2 switcher is my one test platform. It has a rough-looking case, and although the mainboard is not heavily modified, it gets all mods first. Only mods that have been proven on that machine might get deployed on others, in a cleaner way. I don't drill the case either, I put switches etc. into an external project box and just snake a cable out one of the openings, like the user port area.

I have a 1541 Ultimate II+ that handles my needs for cartridges, it can run Easyflash images though it doesn't emulate the ability to flash them.

When I desolder a chip, I stand the board up on one edge. I put flux gel on the chip side of the PCB. I put spring-loaded solder sucker on the bottom of the PCB, completely covering the pin. I put soldering iron on the joint from the top, and then suck from the bottom. Usually that get everything, and I can wiggle it right out with just little bit of hot air.
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rmzalbar
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by rmzalbar »

Received sockets for the short board PLA. Over the next few days I'll pull and socket the main chips, then I can really get to the bottom of the disk turbo and VSP bug issues. I'll make a different thread for all that.

Back to the original topic, red/green color columns, from eslapion I now have the hardware to accurize the clocks on the long board without the need for a frequency counter, so we'll see if that helps. I can also pop in a 8565R2 (yes I know about the need to feed 5V instead of 12V) and see if that matters.

I happened to stumble across another blog with screenshots that show the exact same issue with his 6569. This guy went on to replace his RF box with a simpler circuit with a level-corrected s-video jack in place of the RF output. While it obviously improved the video definition, I can see that it didn't change his color bars!

screenshots: (6569 are the left half)
http://oms.wmhost.com/modulator_vs_spider.png

blog post:
https://amazingdiy.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... #more-5429
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banman
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by banman »

Hi rmzalbar,

Apologies for not responding sooner....

rmzalbar wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:07 pm When I desolder a chip, I stand the board up on one edge. I put flux gel on the chip side of the PCB. I put spring-loaded solder sucker on the bottom of the PCB, completely covering the pin. I put soldering iron on the joint from the top, and then suck from the bottom. Usually that get everything, and I can wiggle it right out with just little bit of hot air.
That's a great idea!

I do something similar, however I never thought about heating the pin from the chip side... I almost always lose some heat not to mention coordination taking the iron off and positioning the pump tip correctly.
Are there any drawbacks to your method, like overheating the chip? Would it be possible to add a little fresh solder to the chip side or the backside to assist or is that not advisable?
I must give it a go. :D

How did you get on with replacing the short board sockets.Have you started up a thread on the VSP bug yet?



There was a call out from our government news broadcaster tasking any one with a unused 3d printer to assist in making COVIT 19 faceshield parts and other medical supplies.

https://apple.news/AvXcymKP1Q1uo6kWH7tpItQ

So I joined the Open Alliance Manufacturers group to print some parts. I'm pretty rubbish at, it's only a small machine.
I was making a part every hour. I could crack out realistically about 4 parts on a work day. I now have managed a way of stacking the parts on the build plate one on top of each other. After printing it can be separated by hand with a knife.
I got a 2 stack to work just now. I have a 3 stack underway...
Hypothetically speaking I could print off 10 parts at once. This means that I can be away or asleep while it's working.


We can communicate with knowledgeable people from as far away as Canada. It's on a platform called Discord it's organised by categories like #ACT, #Quensland etc...

Between my regular job and making parts it's pretty involved here.
rmzalbar
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by rmzalbar »

banman wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:39 pm Are there any drawbacks to your method, like overheating the chip? Would it be possible to add a little fresh solder to the chip side or the backside to assist or is that not advisable?

How did you get on with replacing the short board sockets.Have you started up a thread on the VSP bug yet?
It probably adds a little bit more heat to the chip, but I've never had a problem yet on any I've reused. I use a beveled "hoof" tip against the pin but with the flat foot side on the pad, so most of the heat goes into the via. I only keep it on for max 5 seconds or so, maybe 1 second after I can feel the pin is loose with the iron. I usually do this job with around 350°C. I wonder if extra heat might become an issue with RoHS solder, but I haven't encountered any through-hole DIPs with RoHS yet.

You could add solder if you need to, but I generally get along fine just laying the stripe of flux gel down along the chip side.

Haven't got to start on the short board yet. Work exploded with issues that take up all my time for a while more.

There was a call out from our government news broadcaster tasking any one with a unused 3d printer to assist in making COVIT 19 faceshield parts and other medical supplies.

https://apple.news/AvXcymKP1Q1uo6kWH7tpItQ

So I joined the Open Alliance Manufacturers group to print some parts. I'm pretty rubbish at, it's only a small machine.
I was making a part every hour. I could crack out realistically about 4 parts on a work day. I now have managed a way of stacking the parts on the build plate one on top of each other. After printing it can be separated by hand with a knife.
I got a 2 stack to work just now. I have a 3 stack underway...
Hypothetically speaking I could print off 10 parts at once. This means that I can be away or asleep while it's working.

We can communicate with knowledgeable people from as far away as Canada. It's on a platform called Discord it's organised by categories like #ACT, #Quensland etc...

Between my regular job and making parts it's pretty involved here.
That is pretty neat. I don't have a 3D printer yet.. I get headaches enough just watching my friend struggle maddeningly and endlessly with his. One day I'll have enough need and enough mental space / time to adopt this new obsession. The longer I can wait, the cheaper and less buggy the process gets, hopefully.
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banman
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by banman »

Hi rmzalbar,


Next time the need arises I will try your method of desoldering the chips.



rmzalbar wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:15 am I get headaches enough just watching my friend struggle maddeningly and endlessly with his. One day I'll have enough need and enough mental space / time to adopt this new obsession. The longer I can wait, the cheaper and less buggy the process gets, hopefully.
Yes, agreed... That is a very accurate description of using a 3d printer... 😁



Just to muddy the waters.

I by chance hooked up a C64 250407 mainboard that has a later model 5v 856X Vic II chip to a cheap Hisense LCD TV. I have made the appropriate mods so the 12v pin on the Vic II chip is isolated .
The Vic II chip was purchased from a UK seller.

I noticed alternating vertical bars. I then reconnected the same C64 setup to an old Pioneer Plasma TV. This Pioneer set has seen better days, some of cells aren't working correctly.

Interestingly I observed no vertical bars. Maybe you can give some thought on this.
The image wasn't as sharp as the Hisense LCD. The Pioneer screen is about 5x larger than the Hisense LCD TV set. This may be a factor at play.

Maybe the issue is as eslapion says a feature of the way TV sets / monitors display the incoming signal......

In both cases I used the RF cable and attempted to tune the sets as close as I could to each other.

It is very interesting to note that the sets initally tuned themselves in to different frequencies. That is to say the 2 TV sets have different optimal tuned frequencies.

Also when I was manually tuning the Pioneer set it would not increment to the same frequency. It would come very close. Both the sets had different incremental jumps. I got the frequencies as close as possible as seen in the images.


Where ever I manually tuned the Hisense LCD TV set the vertical bars were present.


Apologies for the upside down images...


Vertical bars on Hisense LCD TV set...
IMG_20200429_170044.jpg
Tuned frequency on Hisense LCD TV set...
IMG_20200429_170212.jpg
Pioneer Plasma Set tuned to as close as possible to the Hisense LCD TV....
IMG_20200429_170725.jpg
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eslapion
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by eslapion »

rmzalbar wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:46 amBack to the original topic, red/green color columns, from eslapion I now have the hardware to accurize the clocks on the long board without the need for a frequency counter, so we'll see if that helps.
WITHOUT a frequency counter ?? I didn't know it could be possible to do such a thing.

I'd love to know exactly how you can accomplish that.
Wealth, like happiness, is never attained directly. It comes as a by-product of providing a useful service. -Harland D. Sanders
rmzalbar
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Re: PAL red/green color moire, not in NTSC

Post by rmzalbar »

eslapion wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:59 pm
rmzalbar wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:46 amBack to the original topic, red/green color columns, from eslapion I now have the hardware to accurize the clocks on the long board without the need for a frequency counter, so we'll see if that helps.
WITHOUT a frequency counter ?? I didn't know it could be possible to do such a thing.

I'd love to know exactly how you can accomplish that.
By TOLBerizing it, of course!
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