Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

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eslapion
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Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

Post by eslapion » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:30 pm

I was sure naive but hey in a way I'm proud of it.

I arrived in the Commodore community, a VIC-20 and C64 fan, just thinking I could provide good service to the community and do it just for the fun of it.

What I didn't know and now realized is there was and there still is a small bunch of people who learned these machines from the user end and since they pushed these machines quite far were admired as idols by many. However, the fact they learned these machines by using and programming them doesn't mean they have true knowledge about their inner workings.

I came from the opposite end. I loved the VIC and 64 but later in life I got an engineering degree and was astounded by the depth and complexity of these machines once I looked at them through a junior engineer's eyes.

Just bumping into the community with this idealistic view of things that I could just jump in and suddenly do good things, it was inevitable that I would be faced with the wrath of those I would unwittingly expose the serious shortcomings of. The idols fall... egos tumble...

When I think of why I was banned from REMOVED, I cannot help but think of those people who were lured to blindness of their admiration for these idols which have become more or less despicable parasites.

One could say I learned the hard way not to step on the toes of these parasites. The fact that they have a good reputation and have been long present in the Commodore community changes NOTHING to the fact they are parasites and their intentions are clear: stay at the top and drive out anyone who's likely to expose their shortcomings, no matter what lies, scheming, insults or disinformation is necessary.

I really think I did the right thing. The sad thing is, TNT appears to be convinced he did the right thing - not realizing he's the pawn of bullshit artists.

The lesson in this little cautionary tale, if there is one, is telling the truth is never a bad thing even if at first it may seem to have negative consequences. I think the long term consequence for TNT and the REMOVED admins is everyone will know they have sided with liars who will stop at nothing to silence dissent.

In a way, I should thank TNT. I would never have sold so many PLAnkton chips and other products if I hadn't been banned.


Wealth, like happiness, is never attained directly. It comes as a by-product of providing a useful service. -Harland D. Sanders

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Re: Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

Post by eslapion » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:13 pm

I didn't expect this but now I'm in contact with Skoe and he more or less confirmed everything I said concerning the technical details of what PLAs really can and cannot do.

He even confirmed that from a strict datasheet point of view, the Turbo Chameleon shouldn't even work with a C64r board precisely for the TTL-LS vs HC chips logic threshold levels problems I mentioned.
Wealth, like happiness, is never attained directly. It comes as a by-product of providing a useful service. -Harland D. Sanders

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Re: Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

Post by yaztromo » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:24 pm

Yes Skoe posted in the "friendly this time please" thread over on REMOVED too, you've probably seen it by now.

I don't know how anyone can be fooled by the people that were arguing against you. I saw through their bull easily, just a shame others could/would not.

Unfortunately I don't see many people jumping ship to Melon unless Kim decides to end REMOVED (which is unlikely). What happened is all under the bridge now, and largely forgotten by everyone. And TBH the amount of people that were vocal about the ban was small.

The 2nd most popular forum seems to be forum64.de. Can you speak German?

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Re: Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

Post by eslapion » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:05 am

@Yaztromo
Nope, I can communicate in french and english but not german.

The fact so many were fooled by the PLA mafia is indeed indicative of how is really strong the stranglehold these people have on the Commodore community.

If find this rather scary. Who's more dangerous? The mythmakers who felt insulted by the fact I revealed the truth about their technical shortcomings or the worshippers who pushed to get me banned for insulting their idols?
Wealth, like happiness, is never attained directly. It comes as a by-product of providing a useful service. -Harland D. Sanders

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Re: Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

Post by zap » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:56 am

Their is no doubt to remain popular on certain forums you need to stay on the right side of certain large personalities and many do. As unfair as it is this also keeps their fans off your back. By fans i mean those that have only half to no clue that blindly follow their idols into an argument against plain facts, logic or reason. I've noticed some of these large personalities technical skills have grown over the years so i suspect they know the error of their ways. I would keep repeating facts and show how you came to your conclusions in simple layman terms .

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http://cbm8bit.com/search

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Re: Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

Post by eslapion » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:14 am

zap wrote:...By fans i mean those that have only half to no clue that blindly follow their idols into an argument against plain facts, logic or reason...
I guess that's the real issue.

In my case, I am a fan of only one thing... scientifically verifiable facts.

Weak minds prefer prefabricated answers and that's probably why many religions exist.

I guess I must have burst the bubbles of more than a few.

Then again the way the events turned out showed out those who do have the ability for rigour and discernment.
Wealth, like happiness, is never attained directly. It comes as a by-product of providing a useful service. -Harland D. Sanders

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Re: Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

Post by fuzzybad » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:28 pm

REMOVED appears to currently be the biggest/most popular Commodore message board, but it definitely has shortcomings. The website design is old and can be difficult to navigate, and their forum software is dated. The users who frequent the site appear to be clannish, as you noted. It also seems biased towards Europe/UK in content and discussion. I rarely go there, preferring Melon and Denial boards..

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Re: Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

Post by eslapion » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:13 pm

I think it was almost 3 years ago that I noted the nonsense of the width display limit which forces pictures to about 500 pixels wide at the most and everything to display on the left side of the screen.

Biased towards Europe/UK, perhaps. Mostly biased towards coders who know little of hardware.

Clannish is certainly an adequate term. Now, myself, Ray Carlsen and even Skoe (creator of easyflash) have sided against their deity, aka Jens Schönfeld.
Wealth, like happiness, is never attained directly. It comes as a by-product of providing a useful service. -Harland D. Sanders

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Re: Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

Post by Tachyon » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:26 pm

This brings up the general underlying issue. There is an old guard, "old boys club" in the C= community that do not take lightly to anyone rocking their boat. They have set themselves up with a nice little cult that includes not only followers, but also a belief system. Anyone that tries to bring new ideas into the cult is immediately attacked and eventually ostracized. They also do not want any of the attention or "worship" that they get from this little cult to be shared with anyone else. So anyone that comes into the community and gets too much attention also soon finds themselves under attack and bewildered as to why.
It really pisses me off because it's a huge detriment to the community as a whole and it impedes progress in the community. New ideas and new was of looking at old problems are stomped out of existence before they can be reasonably and thoughtfully discussed.
You only have to look at any thread about PLA replacements, accelerators (turbo boards), Vic-II emulation/replacement etc. to see the obviousness of these issues. These and other topics have long since been debated and the "correct" paths of exploration decided on. Anything outside those paths is heresy and treated accordingly. Eslapion's treatment in PLA discussions is a prime example.
It's this very nonsense that led me to creating the Commodore Community Consortium, strictly for the purpose of hardware and software development in an open, and collaborative environment with none of this nonsense allowed. To be a place for those with new and exciting ideas that are outside the accepted old guard list to explore and develop those ideas without being slammed and ridiculed until they abandon their ideas.
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Re: Providing service to the Commodore community and the consequences

Post by eslapion » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:56 am

@Tachyon:
You've nailed the real issue right on!
It really pisses me off because it's a huge detriment to the community as a whole and it impedes progress in the community. New ideas and new ways of looking at old problems are stomped out of existence before they can be reasonably and thoughtfully discussed.
Ray Carlsen, Gideon Zweijtzer, myself and even Thomas "Skoe" Giesel have all decided to steer clear of REMOVED because of what you just explained.

Its good that you put this nefarious mechanics into explicit words.

What you mention about the PLA discussions is a prime grade example. These people WILL NOT tolerate anyone exchanging information about some specific issues (the PLA being only one of them) in order to keep the community in a sort of "worship" that involves different dependencies.

Exposure to a certain number of valid scientific information has the effect of breaking down the worship. ... not allowable.

Jim Drew probably had some sort of "deal" that if he were to badmouth me and my information and products, he would get some sort of acceptance in the "cult".

Even after was banned from REMOVED, I still read ridiculous posts on REMOVED from members saying they believe Groepaz because he has so much experience with the C64... they didn't even seem to care for Skoe's post.

Its obvious to me the "old boys club" mostly consists of people who learned programming the 6502 in their basement and THEN moved on to the hardware aspect of Commodore computers because they all seem to consider the "correct path" exactly what university teachers show engineering students as the "common misconceptions" and pitfalls to avoid. Duh!

The CCC is a correct response, IMHO, however, I fear google like the gestapo.
Wealth, like happiness, is never attained directly. It comes as a by-product of providing a useful service. -Harland D. Sanders

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